Çréla Prabhupäda. How long can science cheat people? One hundred years, two hundred years? They cannot cheat them for all time.

Dr. Singh. Cheating has been going on since time immemorial, so perhaps they think they can continue forever.

Çréla Prabhupäda. Not since time immemorial! Science has been cheating people for only the past two or three hundred years, not before that.

Dr. Singh. Oh, really?

Çréla Prabhupäda. Yes, for the last two hundred years they have been preaching that life comes from matter—not for thousands of years. And the cheating will be finished in another fifty years.

Dr. Singh. Yes, now there is a so-called anti-intellectual movement. People are rebelling against science and modern progress.

Çréla Prabhupäda. And what is that science? It is not science! It is ignorance. Ignorance is passing for science, and irreligion is passing for religion. But this cheating cannot go on for long, because some people are becoming intelligent.

Dr. Singh. In Newsweek, one of the largest magazines in the United States, there was an article about the degradation of Christianity. The article included a cartoon picturing the devil causing earthquakes. There was recently a very large earthquake in South America that killed many thousands of people. The cartoon attributed such things to the devil, and right next to him it showed Richard Nixon presenting himself as a follower of Christ but bombing Southeast Asia. In this cartoon, the devil turned to Richard Nixon and said, “It’s hell keeping up with Christians.”

Çréla Prabhupäda. Yes, people will criticize in that way. People are becoming advanced. How long can they be cheated by so-called science and so-called religion? If Mr. Nixon loves his countrymen, why does he not love his country’s cows? They are also born in the same land, and they have the same right to live. Why are they killed? “Thou shalt not kill.” But the animals are being killed. That is imperfection. Kåñëa embraces both the cows and Rädhäräëé.[18] That is perfection. Kåñëa even talks with the birds. One day on the bank of the Yamunä River, He was talking with a bird, because He speaks even in the languages of the birds. An old lady saw this and was struck with wonder: “Oh, He is talking with a bird!”

Dr. Singh. You mean He was actually talking the way the birds talk?

Çréla Prabhupäda. Yes. One of Kåñëa’s qualities described in the Vedas is that He can speak any language. He is the father of all living beings, and the father can understand the language of his children.

Kåñëa is the supreme enjoyer. Actually, except for those who are Kåñëa conscious, no one can have any real knowledge, nor can anyone enjoy. One simply suffers, but he thinks the suffering is enjoyment. This is called mäyä, or illusion. In America people work hard day and night, and they think, “I am enjoying.” This is mäyä. A conditioned soul cannot enjoy anything; he simply suffers, but he thinks he is enjoying.

Therefore, in Çrémad-Bhägavatam the conditioned soul is likened to the camel. The camel is very fond of eating thorny twigs that cut his tongue. While he is eating them, blood issues from his tongue and mixes with the thorny twigs. They become a little tasty, and he is thinking, “Oh, these twigs are very nice.” That is called mäyä. Mäyä means “that which is not.” Mä means “not,” and yä means “this.” So mäyä means “not this.” That is the explanation of mäyä, or illusion. The scientists are in mäyä because they think they are improving things and becoming happy. But this world, along with everything in it, will eventually be finished because it is mäyä; it is not what we think it is. As Çrémad-Bhägavatam explains, the materialists are thinking they are becoming victorious, but they are actually being defeated.